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Apart from McCarthyism (which I still think America hasn’t recovered from) is there any social movement equivalent to this new trans and non-binary nonsense?

And, perhaps more interestingly, assuming this is a trend that will go away (please please universe), what will happen to the people who jumped on this bandwagon? Is there another trend we can look back on? It feels as though a lot of people are on it because they uncritically support what they feel is progress for minorities, but has there ever been a movement that was similarly misguided?

Personally, I’m just waiting for the tides to turn to see what some of these people do. Is Sam Smith going to quietly go back to just being a bloke with feelings? Will Ellen Page demand her pronouns get put back again? Or will they be too scared of hardcore fan pushback?

Apart from McCarthyism (which I still think America hasn’t recovered from) is there any social movement equivalent to this new trans and non-binary nonsense? And, perhaps more interestingly, assuming this is a trend that will go away (please please universe), what will happen to the people who jumped on this bandwagon? Is there another trend we can look back on? It feels as though a lot of people are on it because they uncritically support what they feel is progress for minorities, but has there ever been a movement that was similarly misguided? Personally, I’m just waiting for the tides to turn to see what some of these people do. Is Sam Smith going to quietly go back to just being a bloke with feelings? Will Ellen Page demand her pronouns get put back again? Or will they be too scared of hardcore fan pushback?

37 comments

[–] GelatinousRube 50 points (+50|-0)

I've heard people comparing this movement to the Satanic Panic. I think it fits pretty well. A bunch of adults are willing to believe something pretty fantastical: "children are born in the wrong body and people can change sex."

There's a lot of histrionics being thrown around in the name of saving a vulnerable population. Society is not really using common sense to interrogate these ideas, much like during the Satanic Panic where people claimed they witnessed multiple murders as children, or were raped with knives. No one is going...ok how does that work? Where are the hundreds of "missing" people who were sacrificed to our dark lord? How can you live through being raped with a knife? Where are these supposed tunnels under daycares?

I wonder what people are reacting to right now. Some people postulate the Satanic Panic was a response to women joining the workforce in larger numbers and needing to leave their kids with people who weren't relatives (daycares). I wonder what we will think about this time in hindsight. I hope this will cause a backlash to get people back into common sense and thinking for yourself again. (Talking to you, flat earthers.)

I'm old enough to remember when Satan was constantly headline news. It was a real hysteria. People went to jail.

I will embrace anyone who detransitions. We're all human. People get caught up in cults and movements. It's ok to step back.

[–] Flaneuse [OP] 23 points (+23|-0)

Another really good analogy. People really do uncritically accept something as long as it aligns with their belief system. Some of the ridiculous stories that came out... wow. And also the hack science of hypnotising people until they uncovered memories of abuse - as long as it gets the results people want, it doesn’t matter whether there’s any real science behind it.

I’m trying really to think about what’s causing this. Apart from the obvious men with sexual fetishes. I hate to say it but I think life is very easy and people are bored. There’s also the very real and frightening prospect of climate change and world collapse. It feels very safe to turn inwards and become intensely self reflective. It feels like an attempt an absolute self control in the same way that self harm or anorexia is. The world is very scary and out of control, but I can control this about myself. I can decide who I am and how people are allowed to talk about me. And so on. The other complicating factor is to do with the sex of the person transing. I really think girls are so bombarded with sexual imagery now to trans to a boy feels like the only way to take control. And maybe boys feel as though their status is constantly under attack (girl power, sexy ladies in porn being the object of desire, women gaining equality means none for me, blah blah) and they want to regain it by assuming a female identity. It is true that women have been belittled for thousands of years but now there’s even a hint of it coming back on men and I don’t think they can handle it. Think of all those “stupid dads” adverts, and sexy super heroes that are better than their male counterparts at things. I just don’t think they can handle it.

[–] bellatrixbells 20 points (+20|-0)

You wonder what people are reacting to ? Your suggestion that the Satanic panic was basically a backlash at women's rights is probably correct.

Seems like this here is in reaction to metoo. I think a lot of men were tolerating us in public space, but accountability for rapes was where they drew the line.

[–] Every-Man-His-Own-Football 10 points (+10|-0) Edited

If it's a backlash, I'd say it's to feminism in general. No man would want to legally be considered a woman if it meant second class status. "Rachel" Levine would still be Richard Levine if women were barred from positions of leadership.

But IMO the main driver of trans ideology is male perversion. AGPs get off on everyone pretending they are women, and they used "trans kids" to achieve it. That's also why this movement behaves so extremely: the reward isn't remedying a social ill, but "euphoria".

There is in fact overlap with failsons (of comfortable social background, but downward mobility) who think not working and taking drugs while posting about anarchism online is activism. That I think would be a comparable movement, although the damage they do usually stops at being a disappointment to their families.

[–] bellatrixbells 1 points (+1|-0)

I'm not sure I agree. Levine got the job because he is a man, and despite the virtue signalling where everyone is doublespeaking and proud to show it, everyone knows that they're doublespeaking, in other words while they will dutifully maintain the TWAW line and probably convince themselves to an extent that they do believe it... The truth is they can still see that this guy is a guy and probably give him more credit and authority than they would a woman. If he was aVwoman he would never have gotten away with his lousy handling of covid and seriously dumb statements about OF. We still are held back or barred from many positions, the thing is TIMs are posing as women, but people don't apply the sexist bias to them because that sexism comes from our sex, and his is different. And most of them also know that.

I also have a problem with putting too many of them under the AGP blanket. I think AGPs are being emboldened by the movement, and there certainly are way more of them now that it's been made socially celebratable (I decided this word exists), but I think for a lot of them (and their male allies) the kick they get is actually from regaining control over women. They force us to undress with them even when we don't want to and get to punish us when we protest, they have handmaidens all over them celebrating them like Don Draper on a beach or something. They have women defend them against the women who dare say no.

There is definitely overlap with failsons though, I agree !

[–] salty-tomorrow 11 points (+11|-0)

Fun fact: prominent gender doctor Diane Ehrensaft has been involved with both

[–] spacykate 8 points (+8|-0)

I feel like not enough has been made about this point. She's literally the one who helped whip up the satanic panic and here she is doing something similar.

[–] Srfthrowaway 9 points (+9|-0)

I've compared it to the satanic panic for sure. You detail the parallels well here. It amazes me that there aren't more people talking about it in that light as it is so very similar.

[–] GelatinousRube 10 points (+10|-0) Edited

This is what cracks me up about a podcast--You're Wrong About. They've done eps on the SP and one host is writing a book on it. Yet her podcast partner, a gay man, goes on twitter and gets rowdy about the "stupid terfs." Bro look at your life.

Sorry for the sidebar if you don't know the pod.

[–] teracottacat 1 points (+1|-0)

I listen to this podcast and the same thought has struck me more than once. I'm glad someone else noticed

[–] [Deleted] 0 points (+0|-0)

I have no concept of the satanic panic in the UK as quite a young person; was it a frightening time to live through? The idea of grown adults blaming a bogeyman for absolutely ridiculous shit is just crazy to me. How does such idiocy become popular?

[–] GelatinousRube 2 points (+2|-0)

From what I've seen and read, we were entering into the CNN/24 hour news cycle era, daytime chat shows were getting big and tackled issues that scared some stay at home moms. They were fishing around for all kinds of salacious content.

You know how advertising just inundates you with a brand so it sticks? Familiarity with it creates a positive impression. The same was happening with the news. It was on magazine covers, news stories, memoirs. There was too much information for the idea to be untrue. (Though it was.)

I remember being scared as a youngster (8-10) because the rumor was teens were sacrificing people or dogs in the forest preserve that backed up to my house. Kids swore that their cousin's barber's aunt had seen sites with burnt out candles, bones, blood. I roamed those woods in all seasons when I was young and never saw anything beyond a few stray beer cans. Nothing real and local turned up in the news showing actual evidence of any kind. It was always happening "somewhere else."

I was personally afraid of people but never the devil because I was an atheist and I thought people in my town were being silly by thinking you could be possessed or something.

By the time I was in high school I was a scary satanist myself, and people steered clear, but my rituals were mostly smoking pot and skipping school. Heh.

I think much like now, when an idea seizes people via media (and now internet) exposure, people assume an adult is in charge, that drugs have been thoroughly tested for their purpose, and psychologists have studied the effects of telling children they are born in the wrong body.

Just like I assumed if there were people publishing books, and the police were arresting bad people, someone must've been in charge and known it was true.

[–] [Deleted] 29 points (+29|-0)

Prior to World War II eugenics was very popular in the United States. There were people in the early 2000s who were survivors of ice pick lobotomies, where they just pierced out a piece of your brain. Crazy beliefs can always gain a foothold, almost always start with the academics or "enlightened" among us, and usually dissipate once it becomes clear how much damage it's causing. But there hasn't been the mass institutional capture of media, education, private and public life the way gender theology has done. So I'm not sure what the result of this will be.

I think from the sunk cost fallacy we'll find a desperate grasp to keep it going as long as possible, there will be too many people who will want to continue to live the lie that they chose to castrate or otherwise mutilate themselves for an actual reason. I think that above everything will extend how long this lasts, which is why there's a massive push to get as many people on the train as possible before they realize what's happening.

[–] visits_radio 22 points (+22|-0) Edited

I agree, the eugenics movement in the United States is the closest comparison. It had wide popular appeal. Progressives supported it as that they thought it would cure all social ills within a couple of generations. Well-known civil rights leaders at the time supported eugenics as a way of popularizing their own causes. There were pro-eugenics movies and it was taught in schools. And it was similar in sentiment that all strife and pain were caused by something inherently wrong with the body or mind of the individual rather than symptomatic of larger society. Medical professionals also were willing to prescribe sterilization as the course of treatment with little cause or investigation into the patient's background. It was seen as a panacea.

I recommend the documentary American Experience: The Eugenics Crusade to learn more about it.

[–] GelatinousRube 4 points (+4|-0)

Hmm now I want to learn more. I know little pockets about this era, like what happened to Rosemary Kennedy and Charles Lindbergh's whole deal. Thanks for this, how interesting.

[–] Flaneuse [OP] 17 points (+17|-0)

Oh yes, lobotomies are definitely a fairly comparable trend, that’s absolutely right! Popularised by quacks, experimental in the extreme, widely accepted without real criticism, and with incredibly tragic results. Touted as a miracle cure for a mental issue... there really are a lot of parallels. Especially when you delve into some of these doctors doing “sex reassignment” surgery or whatever, some of them seem to be complete charlatans (I will say some of them do believe what they are doing is right, which is worse) and literal hacks who mutilate people’s bodies.

One thing I’m not sure about is if what I suspect happens and everyone “wakes up”, what will become of transgenderism as a concept. I can’t see it going away but it really should. In a sense I’m glad this has happened now before medical science can really do much in the way to properly “transition” people. Imagine a world where we could actually transplant a womb into a man or make a penis for a woman. I think at some point we will be able to do this, but I hope at that point our understanding of sex and biology will mean we simply do not want to, any more than we would want to give someone an elephant trunk for a nose.

Sorry, it’s late and I’m rambling now!

[–] [Deleted] 15 points (+15|-0)

I don't think it will "go away" since there are articles from the 80s written by men about how much better they are at being women than women are. But that's more sexism than anything.

I think as long as women possess something men don't there will be a push to consume us as a demographic completely. Men Trapped in Men's Bodies, Females, Whipping Girl, and many other books that I've read written by men who believe they're women have convinced me there is no amount of suffering or pain that they won't fetishize, as long as it's happening to a woman.

[–] Flaneuse [OP] 9 points (+9|-0)

Yeah. I don’t think you can really go back in history and examine trans people the way they would have you believe but I agree. Gender norms change all the time but women are always on the bottom. A medieval peasant dude would have absolutely no reason to find anything about being a woman appealing, surely. Then you have fops and dandies who seemed to indulge in peacocking and dressing up while still maintaining their masculinity. There’s no such thing as a historically consistent trans identity because gender roles differ according to class, country, and time. But trans people and TRAs love to go cherry picking and finding anyone they can that they can claim was trans all along. And it’s usually a woman who was educated and powerful and / or dressed like a man to escape oppression. I don’t think men had as much reason historically (apart from kinks) to pretend to be women.

[–] ProxyMusic 18 points (+18|-0) Edited

Most of the comparisons I come up with are of very dark periods/events. Such as

  • The Spanish Inquisition

  • The Salem witch trials and persecution of women generally for centuries in the Middle Ages and early Modern period

  • The Reign of Terror orchestrated by the Committee of Public Safety during the French Revolution, including the instability & culture shock caused by rapidly dethroning the old orthodoxy (the hegemony of the monarchy, aristocracy, the Roman Catholic Church & the RC clergy who controlled much of civic & moral life at the town/parish level)

  • Lysenkoism in the USSR

  • The Great Leap forward in China under Mao that led to the insanity of the Cultural Revolution and the Red Guards

  • What happened under the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia in the mid-late 1970s: outlawing the calendar, records & memory in an effort to wipe the slate of human history clean in order to start civilization over from the ground up, aka "Year Zero;" the demonization of all educated and professional people; forcing the entire population to go to the countryside to do subsistence farming and starve; outlawing education and literacy, and turning all the schools into prisons; use of widespread torture to get people to rat out others so they could be arrested and tortured to give up names too; the mass murder of millions in the killing fields

  • what happened in the UK, Northern Ireland particularly but also extending to England, during "the troubles," the armed occupation by British troops and the time of IRA/Sinn Fein terror

  • All the prosecutions for satanic ritual child abuse in preschools like what happened at the McMartin Preschool in Manhattan Beach, CA. As documented in the excellent 1995 movie, Indictment https://youtu.be/79LWVaymJi0

  • Iran, 1979-80 and ever since

  • the Rwanda genocide

  • what happened in the territories of the former Yugoslavia (now the separate countries called Bosnia &Herzegovina; Kosovo; Macedonia; Montenegro; Serbia; and Slovenia) after the fall of the Iron Curtain, disintegration of the USSR

Also:

Tulip Mania in the Netherlands; the glass delusion in Europe

[–] itsnotaboutewe 14 points (+14|-0)

I don't think there has been another such destructive movement on a global scale as trans-ideology. The satanic panic was restricted to North America and lobotomies, whilst a terrible thing that ruined many lives, didn't impact the average person in the same way that this ideology does. Forced use of pronouns, sports, shelters, bathrooms, changerooms and college scholarships touch all of us across the western world and it's even bleeding into the third world where they actually have more important issues to deal with.

I hope that in years to come we can point to politicians, celebrities, sports people, and medical experts and remind them of the terrible harms they caused to children and the devastating blow they dealt to women's rights when they chose to join this cult instead of fighting for the truth and scientific facts. I, for one, will be constantly reminding these people of their (hopefully former) positions by quoting their own words back to them if they are still in the public eye after this scam has been dealt with. I'm actually hoping those who are currently the most vocal TRAs will sink into obscurity and be forever persona non grata in public life.

[–] hedy 12 points (+13|-1)

Tamagotchis. They were trendy until their endless maintenance became drudgery.

[–] Flaneuse [OP] 14 points (+14|-0)

Very similar. Demanding. Pointless. No one seemed to enjoy them particularly. Collecting them was as fun as collecting pronouns is. Overhyped and shut in a drawer somewhere. We can but hope.

I think smartphones are advanced Tamagotchis, but instead of a virtual pet, people caress their social media profiles.

[–] spacykate 9 points (+9|-0)

It kind of reminds me of the run up to the Iraq war. Manufactured evidence, complete aquiescence by the media, people in charge refusing to acknowledge the evidence that goes against the narrative (that Iraq did not have WMD) etc. Its not quite the same because I don't think people who were against the war lost their jobs in quite the same fashion, but imo its similar.

[–] bluestocking 9 points (+9|-0)

Cults? Major religions?

[–] zuubat 12 points (+12|-0)

Just tuned in last night to the Netflix documentary on Scientology. It's been out for several years. But the parallels are chilling.

Obvious difference: Scientologists ruined the lives of followers and their families; their damage to the larger world was limited.

[–] GelatinousRube 6 points (+6|-0)

Yes $cienos were secretive about their levels. Now we have Dr. Teet Yeets on tiktok. But it is another moneymaking scheme.

It feels as though a lot of people are on it because they uncritically support what they feel is progress for minorities, but has there ever been a movement that was similarly misguided?

It definitely wasn’t a global or far-reaching trend, but including paedophiles in the Gay Rights movements in the UK and US is an example of people feeling misplaced sympathy for a minority.

In the UK several people who went on to have high-ranking positions in the Labour Party were associated with the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paedophile_Information_Exchange