[–] hellamomzilla 74 points (+74|-0)

So many great comments. Here's a fave:

If Ben and his partner are both fertile, there's no need for a surrogate, because "sex is socially constructed". Maybe they just aren't trying hard enough.

[–] ouvalemonde madfem 40 points (+40|-0)

One of them just needs to identify as a woman, problem solved!

[–] GenderHeretic 12 points (+12|-0)

Once one of them identifies as a woman, her body will now be a female body with a fully-functioning female reproductive system!

This will save them a lot of money!

[–] immersang 10 points (+10|-0)

I just spent some time in the comments - made my day. <3

[–] firebird 66 points (+66|-0)

So he does know what a woman is when it benefits him. I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

[–] [Deleted] 56 points (+56|-0) Edited

"Just to add: Of course the expenses of the surrogate shouldn't be necessarily covered by the state. But I do resent having to get my credit card out for medical services that would be free if I was straight."

What an entitled man-child.

[–] [Deleted] 41 points (+42|-1)

He does realize he is talking about another human being right? What an disgusting entitled ass. Think I’m done with LGBT. I’m pro just L at this point. Gay men can fuck off with their entitlement.

[–] vauqueline 34 points (+34|-0)

Gay men are still men.

[–] clouds 20 points (+20|-0)

THIS. I have had quite a few gay male friends and then they did shitty, misogynistic stuff and I went "oh duh, they're still men." Felt so dumb for feeling a modicum of safety around them.

One of them proudly told me about his kink-based abuse and financial abuse of his partner as if it was something to be proud of. I wanted to vomit. I literally have not spoken to him since.

[–] RisingUp 40 points (+40|-0) Edited

No, Benjamin, YOU are not the recipient of "medical services" here. The woman who gets pregnant is the person who gets medical services.... wait, was all your confusion about sex actually genuine? You see, Benjy, you don't actually have a uterus and you can't grow one by thinking very hard about it.... oh. I see. That isn't the problem, after all.

You think that a woman's body is a "medical service." That's the fucking problem.

With all due respect, you walking fleck of excrement, go fuck yourself, and then "get pregnant" by yourself, and then die giving birth to your own head out of your asshole where it got stuck for nine months.

[–] Verdandi 10 points (+10|-0)

Does he think straight couples don't pay medical bills??

[–] RisingUp 11 points (+11|-0) Edited

Women are entitled to some IVF treatment on the NHS in some circumstances . It has nothing to do with being straight, lesbians are entitled too. Men aren't entitled, because they don't have wombs and there is no mechanism by which to conduct IVF treatment on men. Again, it has nothing to do with being straight.

This absolute execrescence of a human appears to believe that women are some kind of service utility that should come on tap provided by the state like water and just because he isn't straight that doesn't mean he isn't entitled to one. He's a gay version of the Government GIrlfriends incel.

[–] june_atwood 4 points (+4|-0)

He clearly has no idea what parenting entails. My credit card has not belonged to me since my daughters were born.

[–] TheRoyalJesterf 26 points (+26|-0)

What does he mean the services would be covered if he were straight? What if he were with a tRaNs wOmXn??? Isn't that a """straight""" relationship that would need a surrogate? What a tRaNsPhObE!!1!1! Cancel him!

[–] [Deleted] 8 points (+8|-0)

Ha! Good one. We should call him out for his Transphobia. Burn him!

[–] Fpccgc 24 points (+25|-1)

Should women even be able to do IVF? I mean in my opinion (though I’m open to changing it) no man or woman has a right to a baby.

Though I see where there is a difference between IVF and using someone’s body for 9 months.

I don't think the reality of those fertility treatments are spoken about enough in an honest way. They are brutal to a woman's body. And the treatments are relentless. I think to go through with it a woman has to be desperate to have a baby. I have only bore witness btw, I haven't personally done them. I also think there's an element of laziness on the doctor's side because a lot of women could probably conceive without IVF if they received proper counselling on their condition (like PCOS).

[–] Verdandi 16 points (+16|-0) Edited

Plus they'll harp and nitpick at every little thing it could possibly be in the woman's chart, when all that time, money, heartache, and self-flagellation could have been saved by testing the man's sperm counts,etc at the same time. It's always the woman that's assumed to be the problem.

There's still this mindset that men are ALWAYS virile, no matter their age or health. I think because we can clearly see he's still ejaculating,we think nothing is wrong. Whereas everything happening inside the woman is hidden away and mysterious, so naturally it's bad, scary, and inherently defective.

Sorry, edited for clarity

Women must be perfect or else it's our fault for everyone else not understanding our mysterious lady parts. It's awful, psychological torture just as much as it is physical torture as well.

40-50% of infertility cases are caused by the male!! But who gets the blame, always?

[–] [Deleted] 4 points (+4|-0)

As far as I know, the man is tested first, because all he has to do is jerk off in a cup and then it's known if he's fertile or not. Now, some men act like babies about this, that's true.

[–] [Deleted] 7 points (+7|-0)

I know a woman who went through two cycles of IVF and four miscarriages. She is still haunted by those miscarriages.

So much emphasis is put on making yourself the perfect vessel and taking medications and suppositories at the right time, I can only imagine women who have been through it like your friend blaming themselves for losing their baby. I'm sorry to hear she is still suffering, it is a traumatic thing to happen over and over again.

Personally, I am effectively infertile and after watching friends go through it, I just will not put myself through it. I work in children's mental health so I think of the kids I work with as "my kids" and that's enough for me.

[–] [Deleted] 6 points (+8|-2)

IVF is also used for male infertility and it's the only option in some cases if the couple don't want to use a sperm donor (which I don't blame them for, I wouldn't be happy to carry a stranger's baby).

It is a brutal process to go through and the success rate goes down with a woman's age significantly but if the couple wants it, I don't see anything wrong with it.

I think it's expected of infertile couples (on whichever end) to go "all the way" to have a baby and of course the burden is always on the woman. I appreciate all the bloggers and vloggers that document the process in detail because people can learn more about what they're getting themselves into. I don't think the general public is very knowledgeable though. I mentioned in another comment that I am infertile and I have had some very nasty comments passed to me because I am not sacrificing life and limb to have a baby. My doctors refuse to educate themselves on PCOS and offer anything that would be helpful to me - they've shrugged and said, "well just do IVF then." I have nothing against the procedure but I do feel it is used as a weapon and an excuse for not treating any underlying conditions causing infertility.

[–] jelliknight 2 points (+2|-0)

Or just better advice on how to conceive. We're starting a family so I'm on some facebook groups with women and it's shocking what many of them are told by their doctors. Women, learn Fertility awareness method, have sex when you see peak CM and before your temperature shifts (the movies are wrong, an elevated temperature means you are no longer fertile) and be aware that the odds are about 25% even if you do everything perfect so on average you'll have to try 4 months. That means for every person who gets pregnant on the first or second try, there's some women trying a lot longer. It's not necessarily something wrong with you, it's just odds.

And yes, most issues like PCOS can be treated but your doctor will almost certainly have no clue how to do that, so look elsewhere.

I also wonder if IVF treatments which screw with a woman hormones will make her less fertile in the long run. Iatrogenic illness, it's a bitch.

[–] Fpccgc 0 points (+0|-0)

I have no knowledge on IVF, but if getting pregnant through IVF is that difficult, I’d be worried about going through the pregnancy, the birth of the baby, and the baby’s health. But as other people on here pointed out, a woman should have the bodily autonomy to do it.

Without question she should have the option to do it. My issue is it being thrown out as something as easy as buying something at the shop

[–] agodachi 17 points (+17|-0)

I agree.

I think these fertility alternatives are all so weird and they rub me the wrong way, I'm often the minority of my friends on this but I don't like IVF and especially not surrogacy.

[–] [Deleted] 5 points (+6|-1)

IVF and surrogacy are miles apart. IVF just deals with certain physiological or anatomical problem with either the man or the woman. At no point is another person's body used as an incubator.

[–] [Deleted] 8 points (+9|-1)

I guess it comes down to bodily autonomy-while having a child is not a right, I understand wanting a medical fix for a medical problem. That said, it would be interesting to know how many woman want IVF outside of the pressure of their male partners.

[–] [Deleted] 2 points (+4|-2)

It might be my limited social circle but all the women I know know who went through IVF wanted it wayside more than their husbands.

[–] jelliknight 2 points (+2|-0)

I don't think anyone has a right to a baby. I don't think there's a 'right' to IVF. If it's a service the govt chooses to provide, that's fine, but it's optional the same as cosmetic surgery.

We do have a right to use our own bodies as we desire, to the extent nature allows.

[–] spicyramen 17 points (+19|-2)

just in general... i don't think having a [bio] kid is a "right" at all [cause in these discussions it's almost always about biological offspring rather than adoption...] like you should have the right to your own body and the right to try, of course. but arguing for some sort of right to a baby inevitably treats a child as an object to be obtained. no one has the right to another human being at all, whether it's as a partner or as a parent or whatever.

[–] [Deleted] 17 points (+19|-2)

No, but you have the right to healthcare to make your body function as it normally should, in perfect health, so if you have an injury to or disease of your reproductive system that prevents you from reproducing, funding attempts to fix the problem is no worse than medical or surgical treatment to gets your legs to work as they normally should.

Two men, in perfect health, will never make a baby, so this is moot in their case.

[–] spicyramen 8 points (+8|-0)

that's reasonable. i didn't mean to suggest that publicly funded fertility treatments were on the same level as demanding publicly funded surrogates. i was merely critiquing what i see as an insidious ideology surrounding reproduction discourse

[–] [Deleted] 3 points (+4|-1)

I agree, and it's worth discussing where the line might be. I think involving a third party is a clear one in the sense of surrogacy. Less confident about donor eggs, or donor sperm (which is much less invasive), and whether it matters if it's a paid/anonymous gamete, or a donation.

[–] Jellyfishes 4 points (+9|-5)

Imo it's different because reproducing is not vital or important on an individual level. You won't die or need medications/treatment to live because you can't have a kid. It's completely different from people who have cancer or lost a limb.

Society needs to stop glorifying reproduction, so that infertile people can accept themselves instead of falling to predatory medical practices.

[–] [Deleted] 4 points (+7|-3)

I think it's more subtle than that. Nobody needs to play a sport, but if my arm is injured in such a way that I can do most of my normal activities but can't play a sport, the healthcare system is happy to treat my injury. Someone who loses hearing in one ear can go about life largely as usual, but they're still entitled to treatment to attempt to restore hearing, etc. Quality of life is fairly subjective, but I think "what does this organ system/body part do in a perfectly healthy person?" is a reasonable question, when differentiating between treating infertility vs paying to graft an artificial penis, eg.

I absolutely agree that infertile people should be allowed to make peace with that however they choose - through pursuing treatment/adoption/being happily childfree. But that doesn't need to come at the expense of treating infertility, and I don't think it would actually change the external pressures that much.

[–] [Deleted] 9 points (+10|-1)

No one is entitled to an adopted child either. Adoption has so many ethical landmines it's not straightforward at all. For example, many women are pressured to give up their babies to richer families instead of receiving support, so that they can raise their own child. And the so called "pregnancy crisis centers" exist in order to prevent women from getting an abortion and pressure them into giving their baby up to good Christian families. And international adoption is often child trafficking.

[–] [Deleted] 10 points (+10|-0)

God, this is such an important point. The only person in an adoption dynamic who is entitled is the child: they're entitled to the best family situation possible. If that means someone doesn't get to adopt, that's in the greater scheme of things a good outcome.

[–] [Deleted] 7 points (+7|-0)

I think the biological mother is entitled to keep her child unless she's abusive or a drug addict. I think it's more important for women considering giving up their child to receive support even if that means that some other family sounds better on paper (read - has more money). Otherwise we might as well just start reallocating poor kids to rich families, which is obviously not OK.

Now if the mother for some reason was willing to go through with the pregnancy but unwilling to keep the baby (not unable, unwilling) then adoption is ethical.

[–] jelliknight 2 points (+2|-0) Edited

This is my problem with euthanasia too. When we support "the easy way out" we will inevitably support other (better) options less. When we act like adoption is this wonderful thing, we provide less support to the people who want to keep their babies. Why would we, when adoption is so great? And when we get used to killing off people who are suffering, why would we bother investing in research for end of life treatment and management?

People aren't disposable or transactional. I don't like the path we're going down as a society where we support buying a child on the one end and offing vulnerable people at the other. Lives are becoming very cheap.

[–] How 15 points (+15|-0)

They want womb implants so I imagine they will be willing to provide us with babies for money. Do you think it would be cheaper to use a surgically enhanced body? Maybe we could use eastern European or Bangladeshi Transwomen. Maybe we could pay for the implant and the baby in one go. What sounds fair? $15,000. That would more than pay for itself in career progression and avoidance of health issues. Sounds barbaric, right?

[–] crodish 14 points (+14|-0)

Love the comments saying, "what do you mean, men can give birth too! /s" and then linking or mentioning trans men... I WONDER WHY ONLY WOMEN AND TRANS MEN CAN CARRY AND GIVE BIRTH? WHAT COULD BE THE REASON???

We're all salty af about this shit...

[–] [Deleted] 11 points (+11|-0)

There are not enough vomit emoji's for this man's disgusting entitlement.

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