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Let's discuss!

My timeline is blowing up with Libfems posting clapping gifs and quotes from the interview that promote Choice Feminism.

Express yourself, right?

Weird how nearly all female child performers express themselves in the same way. Always shortly after turning 18.

Let's discuss! My timeline is blowing up with Libfems posting clapping gifs and quotes from the interview that promote Choice Feminism. Express yourself, right? Weird how nearly all female child performers express themselves in the same way. Always shortly after turning 18.

185 comments

[–] TheEthicalHedonist 99 points (+99|-0)

The frustrating thing I find people saying is how that she’s now “taking control.” As if making the conscious choice to wear baggy clothes to avoid the exploitation of her body wasn’t her being in control? So now women are only in control if they’re half naked on the cover of a magazine? No thank you.

[–] no- 3 points (+3|-0)

All female stars announce their new "liberated", "sex positive", "empowered" image between the ages of 18 and 20. And it always looks exactly the same: blonde hair, revealing clothes, sexy poses. It can't be a coincidence, and it doesn't even look spontaneous in most cases. Can you imagine if this was the norm for famous boys too? "Now that I'm legal, I'm gonna be a sex icon and show my six pack!" I don't think that's ever happened, because it's not empowering.

[–] LH 3 points (+3|-0)

This is kind of important: As I understood it she has said in the interview that went along with the pictures, that she wore baggy clothes only because she "hated her body" . That is not being in control either. And is kind of equally as sad as posing for objectifying pictures.

Also, would not wearing baggy / covering clothes not to be sexualised be similar to some of the things people mention as the purpose of burkhas etc. It has irked me that that this has been seen as something positive or healthy.

Being covered up or naked sometimes seems like two sides of the same patriarchal coin.

Ideally a person wears clothes suitable to the situation and climate and personal taste?

Also she is only 19, I think its awful how people criticizie her as a person, she herself is not at fault, its hard not to be brainwashed by societies messages about the female body growing up. And she is still figuring herself out.

I think its good to , as you do in this post, to critizize the phenomena of (self) objectification itself, and to understand how it comes about.

It is sad and awful that the objectification of women is so normalised.

[–] IrishTheFrenchie 94 points (+95|-1)

I'm pretty disappointed in this.

Obviously, Eilish can do what she wants. Fine.

But my daughter loved her BECAUSE she specifically refused to use her body or become a sex object to get ahead with her music. She wore baggy clothes to hide her figure and refused loads of face paint.

So to see this... it just kind of sucks.

[–] RegularFeminist 61 points (+61|-0) Edited

Yeah, I am 29, but I was happy that nowadays teenage girls have a role-model to aspire. Like you can be a famous singer winning Grammies and dgaf about performing feminity. She can wear what she wants of course, like if she suddenly realized that she was into dresses - no problem. But pin-up photoshoot? Wtf, Billie

[–] IrishTheFrenchie 75 points (+75|-0)

It took four dye sessions to erase the signature jet black and lurid green she’s worn for 18 months. She was “ready for it to suck”, but it’s been transformative. “I feel more like a woman, somehow,” she says, surprised.

sigh

“Suddenly you’re a hypocrite if you want to show your skin, and you’re easy and you’re a slut and you’re a whore. If I am, then I’m proud. Me and all the girls are hoes, and f**k it, y’know? Let’s turn it around and be empowered in that.

SMH

[–] Calico 44 points (+44|-0)

That was the worst part of it. I don’t care if she like to glam up every so often for a photo shoot or whatever, but her talking about the virtues of hyperfemininity and embracing objectification like this just makes me want to C R I N G E.

[–] IronicWolf 9 points (+9|-0)

Nothing empowering in sexualising yourself and acting for the benefit of men.

Being ‘proud to be a hoe’ is basically the sum total of pretty much all female musicians these days. Really showing it to The Man by giving him exactly what he wants.

[–] milpathecat 51 points (+51|-0)

The same exact thing happened to my generation with Avril Lavigne.

[–] purpleratata 18 points (+18|-0)

It also happened with Gwen Stefani, who went from a "Just a girl" singing tomboy to... Whatever she is now. In her case I think it was getting old what made her to start sexualising herself.

[–] NomDeGuerre 20 points (+20|-0) Edited

Lorde (who is about 4 years older than Billie) is an example of a critically-acclaimed female artist who first achieved mass success, Grammy wins, etc. at 17 without a sexualized image and that didn't change after her transition to adulthood.

I was surprised at first that I didn't see her mentioned in this post given the similarity of her & Billie's career trajectories, but it actually makes sense. Between albums/tours, Lorde basically disappears - stays off social media, doesn't do PR stunts to keep her name in the press, and lives in her native country (and non-media hotspot) of New Zealand.

Conducting her career this way has absolutely made her less buzzworthy, but it's probably also removed a lot of stress and pressures from her life (not to mention exploitative people) that lead to stuff like this.

[–] BurnBooker [OP] 5 points (+5|-0)

I really enjoyed Benee last summer, New Zealand has some wonderful young artists.

[–] [Deleted] 56 points (+56|-0) Edited

Yeah I don’t get it. I thought Billie was all about avoiding the male gaze. Was that just a PR move the whole time? Let’s make this underage girl’s body off limits so people are salivating even more after her 18th birthday? It’s so messed up.

Edit:

“‘You’re going to complain about being taken advantage of as a minor, but then you’re going to show your boobs?’” she says. “Yes I am, motherf**ker! I’m going to because there’s no excuse.”

Once again, no actual explanation or reason is given, because there isn’t one. Sexualizing herself for men is validating and lucrative. That’s it. It’s about money and shutting up the people who said negative things about her body. Sigh. Not a fan anymore.

[–] tamata 35 points (+35|-0)

My friend and I were just talking about this, and my friend posed a question that I can't get out of my head. "Who exactly is this for?"

[–] yikesforever 21 points (+24|-3)

I don't think she ever wanted to be an icon for that tho. She's said that she dresses that way just because she wants to, and if she wants to dress sexier she will.

[–] IrishTheFrenchie 23 points (+23|-0)

Could be. It's how my daughter explained it to me xyz years ago. "I love B.E. because she said she isn't going to show off her body..."

Teenaged translation could be off.

[–] yikesforever 17 points (+20|-3)

She's young now, she must have been super young when she said that, of course she's going to change her mind, even adults do.

[–] v_o_la 81 points (+81|-0)

I feel for her. She's been neck-deep in the music industry since childhood, and her family doesn't seem serious about protecting her. She dated a 22-year-old when she was 16. At 19, she's singing about how the 22-year-old abused her while dating a 29-year-old. You just want to seize her parents by the shoulders and shake them into parenting — but why would they do anything to rattle the fortune that's coming in?

She's 19, and sadly it's all too common for 19-year-old girls to agonize about their looks, to hurt when others say they aren't hot, as the whole world has said about Billie Eilish for years. It would have been wonderful if she could have brushed off that pressure, but I don't think it's fair to expect iron skin from someone so young. Many women take longer than 19 years to get there. It can't help to have so many eyes on her, waiting for her to fuck up as she figures herself out.

[–] tamata 27 points (+27|-0)

What's even more messed up is that people have been saying that she's hot. Since she was 17 and her hypersexual "bad guy" became a hit, people haven't been quiet about finding her sexually attractive, especially after she turned 18.

I'm saying that you're more right than you think you are. The pressure is intense even when you are conventionally attractive and everyone can see it. It's never enough for the masses, you have to get as naked as possible to flaunt and prove it.

[–] v_o_la 45 points (+46|-1)

I mean, she's beautiful. She looks like Scarlett Johansson. But she's clearly insecure about her body, and this new turn is a response to that insecurity. She's said before that she struggled with an eating disorder to the point of popping diet pills at age 12. She only started wearing baggy clothes because she hated the way her body looked in tight ones, and she didn't want to be shamed. Her old sense of fashion didn't stem from feminist principles. She was just protecting herself from one kind of hurt — and now she's saying fuck it, I'll prove I'm hot so they can't hurt me like that anymore.

I don't think it'll work like she wants it to, but I get why she feels that way. I just hope she pulls through all right. Her parents and brother aren't looking out for her at all. I still get chills when I remember that Finneas co-wrote the line about his underage sister being a "might seduce your dad type."

[–] tamata 37 points (+38|-1)

I hate "bruises on both my knees for you," more. I feel like the seduce your dad thing is her being edgy, which I also hate, but the bruises on her knees is worse to me because that would bother me even if an adult sang it.

I agree on her family. I don't know the details but it can't be good. You know what really bothers me about her brother? On an interview with him, the host asked him if there was a chance that she would work with other producers on her future projects. (He produces all of her music.) He aggressively answered, "no! She's all mine," or something to that effect. He said that he's the only one who can understand her vision and he's not ready to let her move onto working other producers, as if other producers are monkeys who have never cared nor learned how to understand what singers want from them. I love pop music, and one of the things I love seeing is seeing pop stars work with different people behind the scenes, from writers to producers to music video directors. This is how they grow artistically in their own career and in the public eye. Her brother should want her to expand her music-making team as freely as she likes. Him saying that shows me that her moving away from him doesn't seem to be much of an option, whether she realizes it or not.

Though all pop stars are manufactured down to their toes, Billie Eilish strikes me as one who lives in an even smaller bubble than the average pop star does. I know they are richer than I ever will be and I don't know anything about them, but I can't help but have empathy for them. They're women just like me, many of them living in their own cages (especially the young ones), albeit bigger and painted with gold. I wish they could just make music and go.

[–] worried19 22 points (+22|-0)

Fucking hell. I just read the lyrics to that song. And she sang that when she was 17? Kid was doomed from the start.

[–] [Deleted] 19 points (+20|-1)

I’ve always said it’s extremely creepy that she and her brother are co-writing lyrics about her being on her knees for men. She is not in a healthy environment. Sadly this may only be the start.

[–] sexmatters 63 points (+63|-0)

Really telling how people are praising her “glow up” as if there was anything wrong with her before.

It sucks and we've learned nothing from Britney Spears.

[–] FedUp12345 27 points (+27|-0)

Or any other female celebrity ever

It just drives me mad as we just were all up in arms because Britney was oversexualised as a teen and offered up to men on a silver platter once she turned 18 - only difference is the illusion she’s chosen this herself, which I doubt was a choice she made fully independently, and it’s supposed to be okay.

[–] SulphuricMirror 1 points (+1|-0)

Remember the South Park episode about Britney? That show can dumb sometimes but they really hit the mark with that one. The 'harvest' thing. I remember watching it when it came out and it felt more like a horror movie than a funny, silly adult cartoon. It was absolutely chilling?

I just realized I'm replying to a month-old comment, sorry about that.

[–] Penthesilea 48 points (+48|-0)

We must be in the same radfem discord server cause that’s exactly what I said when I first saw the photos. I also hate that she’s encouraging girls to “get surgery if you want to get surgery.” I hate choice feminism — our opinions aren’t formed in a vacuum, and just because something makes us feel good doesn’t mean it’s good for us!

[–] Radical 46 points (+46|-0)

I hate it. I absolutely hate it. But more than that, I'm concerned. Knowing what we know about the industry she works in, the predators closely controlling her life (e.g. her brother) and how her behaviour and opinions have done a complete 180° in a matter of months... I can't help but think something sinister might be going on.

Is this a cry for help? Did something happen? Did the pressure become too overwhelming? Is she conforming to the very thing she claimed to hate to escape something else? Or did she just fall for the liberal feminism speal?

[–] Penthesilea 28 points (+28|-0)

She was heavily body-shamed last summer as a result of some unflattering paparazzi photos, which may have contributed to her feeling the need to put out ‘hot’ photos of herself.

[–] wimmincritter 23 points (+23|-0)

the predators closely controlling her life (e.g. her brother)

I wonder if she went blonde to look less like his creepy doppelganger girlfriend.

[–] hufflepuff-poet 15 points (+16|-1)

Her brother is a predator?

I had (naively) assumed they were very close and had a natural musical sibling connection, has she spoken on this before?

[–] [Deleted] 18 points (+23|-5)

I honestly thought her brother was her boyfriend for the longest time until I actually paid attention to her music. They're close in a way that strikes me more as boyfriend/girlfriend than siblings and it c r e e p s me out.

[+] [Deleted] 12 points (+13|-1)
[–] darksunset 43 points (+51|-8) Edited

Well, Vogue wasn't gonna put her on the cover again if she wanted to wear another trash bag. People have already seen and consumed that.

She, like nearly ever other celebrity, is an utter idiot that will say whatever, do whatever to stay relevant. And when their schtick gets old, she will re-invent something new. The dumber the antics, the more headlines. And of course, these are the people promoted as ideals, as role models.

How on earth do we promote real role models - normal, successful, and INTELIGENT women instead of celebs, instagrammers, and professional victims?!?!

[–] Medea 32 points (+33|-1) Edited

How on earth do we promote real role models - normal, successful, and INTELIGENT women instead of celebs, instagrammers, and professional victims?!?!

Either eradicate capitalism, thereby eradicating our obsession with money as a signifier of value. If you want to keep capitalism, though, then start paying the former group more. Society just sees people making obscene amounts of money as their new Gods to worship and emulate.

[–] Feerique 20 points (+20|-0)

Somehow I think even without capitalism, people will still be pandering for likes and women will still be graded by attractiveness.

[–] Srfthrowaway 21 points (+23|-2) Edited

How on earth do we promote real role models - normal, successful, and INTELIGENT women instead of celebs, instagrammers, and professional victims?!?!

You know why. Those we are all Karens.

[–] tamata 19 points (+21|-2)

This is sort of random but this is as close to a chance I'll ever get to say this: she was answering questions on her IG story, and a fan had asked, "favorite book?" And she captioned "mine lol" on a photo of her autobiography.

That's so... sad. Has she read anything? Anything at all... ?

[–] hypatia 10 points (+11|-1)

How on earth do we promote real role models - normal, successful, and INTELIGENT women instead of celebs, instagrammers, and professional victims?!?!

This is why books are so important. It's really the only media where physical appearance isn't the most important, and the author can focus on making someone's character and mind most important.

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[–] [Deleted] 41 points (+41|-0)

I suggest avoiding the Twitter discussion around this. It’s full of lib fems praising a lingerie shoot as ‘sooooo empowering 😍’ and anyone who is even a bit uncomfortable about this sudden U-turn in personal expression that conforms to patriarchal ideals is apparently a sexist themselves for not letting women do things they want to do. She’s still so young, it’s so fucked up.

[–] bellatrixbells 36 points (+36|-0)

We really need to stop having child/teen stars in any case. It fucks them up and it gives them platforms where they say dumb teenager stuff that others listen to.

I always thought she was trying too hard to be edgy, like a new version of Avril Lavigne. Teen icons are really lame in general.

[–] HessaHein 34 points (+35|-1)

I remember reading about stuff like this on conspiracy theory forums and how female pop stars follow such a familiar heterosexual pattern. I believe it was called Sex Kitten Programming, a form of trauma based programming. Same sexy poses, same Marilyn Monroe hair, same "empowerment" speech.

I should look into this.

[–] FedUp12345 14 points (+14|-0)

Please do and make a post about it! I’m very interested, I’m sure other women here are too

[–] hypatia 10 points (+10|-0) Edited

I've read about that too.

I think that regardless of if it's an actual conspiracy (handlers, brain washing through traumatic experiences, etc) I think that our culture has a specific iconography around sexuality that many people reference as they explore their own. Blonde-ness is sexualized, Marilyn Monroe is seen as an icon still of a very specific sexual archetype.

By the way, Gloria Steinem wrote a biography of Marilyn Monroe that was pretty interesting.

[–] Freyja 5 points (+5|-0) Edited

I think that our culture has a specific iconography around sexuality that many people reference as they explore their own.

Agree. I think the nude lingerie coloring paired with the trenchcoat was meant to evoke that well-known image/trope of being actually nude hiding under a trenchcoat.

[–] hypatia 2 points (+2|-0)

Hadn't thought of that! I could see that.

I saw a lot of references to what I think of as 40's era looks. The trenchcoat felt very film noir to me, and it seemed like she was going for "femme fatale" as her inspiration. The nude palette and the longer cloth skirt in one of her photos felt the most vintage to me; then there was the nod to fetish culture (the latex gloves and stockings). I'd say at this point that Billie Eilish's "signature" styling is long acrylic nails and small chain accessories, which you can see throughout the shoot.

I totally see the "flasher" inspiration that you pointed out in that one photo. I wasn't a huge fan of the Burberry corset. That prominent label does make you wonder how much she got paid for this shoot.

[–] klo137 10 points (+10|-0)

Why would anyone downvote this? Also I would like to see an analysis of this too.

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